The Rambles of Neil Monnery

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On this Stop all immigration and close the UK borders until ISIS is defeated petition bollocks…

with 28 comments

Oh people. People of the UK. At times I know I sit on a different side of the fence to the majority. That is fine. I’m used to it. Yet last night when I saw an e-petition get shared on social media entitled, Stop all immigration and close the UK borders until ISIS is defeated then I started to get angry. Not because this e-petition exists, as I’m not surprised some people would think like this but because over a quarter of a million people had signed it. Overnight another 50,000 people have seemingly signed it and I want to go up to every single one of them and shake them vigorously asking if they understand exactly what they are arguing for.

Here is what we know, there are some bad guys (and girls) out there who are determined to change our way of life. They want the western world to take steps back and allow them to lord over huge swathes of the Middle East without any interference. They want this so they can use terror and intimidation to get what they want, whether they be to kill who they want to kill, rape who they want to rape, do some genocide just for the thrills, force people to follow the path that they want them to follow. Is this really what we want for people who are of the same species to us? Are we really so insular that we care only about what we can see if our own very narrow field of vision?

Just because we can’t physically see the danger that millions of people face doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. These refugees are fleeing from these barbaric people because what the people of Paris faced on Friday night is akin to what these people face every single day. Read your newspapers and you’ll see stories most days about people being rounded up in IS held territories and being executed for a variety of made-up reasons, that the terrorists use to reinforce their power and control over people. Would we accept that if it was us in that was us and would we want the world to turn a blind eye? Fuck no we wouldn’t.

It is easy to turn yourselves off to what is having beyond your spectrum. It is so easy to bury your head in the sand but these people are out there and they are brutally tearing apart the lives of millions of people. By closing our borders until this horrific terrorist group are defeated all we are saying is that we are all right and everyone else can deal with helping out these people fleeing from fear. Is that who we are? Are we really the type of people that only care about our lot in life and can’t empathise with those who have it so so so much worse?

There but for the grace of God is a great saying (although God doesn’t exist but still) and it is pure luck that you or I were born in the UK, where we have some many opportunities and relative freedom from oppression. We don’t get gunned down in the street just because we have a different point of view to someone else. Our sister and daughters aren’t taken by men with guns to be sex slaves just because they get off on it. These people face these scenarios daily and we wonder why they are desperately fleeing because lets be honest, wouldn’t we? Of course we fucking would.

Yes bad men and women will abuse the system to attempt to get into our country and carry out attacks aimed at changing our way of life but just because some bad people exist doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t help those who need help. People rag on the benefits system because a few bad eggs abuse it and take money that they don’t need or are entitled to but those few bad eggs taint the view of far too many. The benefits system is a lifeline to many but it is another example where our views are changed by the insignificant minority. People are being slaughtered and what some people want to do is totally looks inwards and not think about their fellow human beings. I know it sounds a bit Zen or hippy but we are but one species and we should be united against those who want to divide and conquer.

I’ll end this with this scenario. It is easy to ignore something that we cannot see but put yourself in this situation, you are walking down the street and you see a group of men with guns dragging a 12 year-old girl into a van and they start raping her. Do you get angry? Do you get scared? Do you feel helpless? Do you want to help? Do you want to do something to stop the pain this girl is feeling? Do you want to do anything you can to stop this happening? Just because it isn’t happening in your street doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. It is happening every single fucking day and we in the west have only seen the tip of what these barbarians want to do to people.

What a compassionate society does is welcome with open arms refugees, to give them a safe haven and an opportunity to not only to live but an opportunity to have a life. They are two distinctly different things and if people only care about themselves then they are perfectly entitled to do just that but for me, I don’t think that just because bad people aren’t in my field of vision they don’t exist. This is a time for the people of the UK to stand up for people who need our help, not to look the other way and tell the world that it isn’t our problem. Doing the easy thing is to walk away and tell the world that it isn’t our problem but the easy thing is very rarely the right thing.

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Written by neilmonnery

November 15th, 2015 at 12:46 pm

Posted in Politics

28 Responses to 'On this Stop all immigration and close the UK borders until ISIS is defeated petition bollocks…'

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  1. Get real, majority of the points you make are legitimate but we need control of borders then we can help genuine refugees taking them direct from camps as Cameron is doing and not simply letting in a Trojan horse!! Genuine refugees would be great full for anywhere that offers a safe haven and would not be selective like we have seen with everyone heading to northern Europe. You need to wisen up to other cultures and stop using Western standards to assume everyone is straight and innocent! Some so called refugees have exploited fellow refugees in an attempt to gain priority treatment in the West. Great intentions which can still be executed but with controls in place. I bet you would be one of the first to complain if the atrocities witnessed in France happened here. Folk like you would be the first to accuse the got of not doing enough despite your contribution to the breakdown of common sense applications.

    anita

    15 Nov 15 at 11:49 pm

  2. Let’s get real here. Majority of the points you make are legitimate but we need control of borders then we can help genuine refugees taking them direct from camps as Cameron is doing and not simply letting in a Trojan horse!! Genuine refugees would be great full for anywhere that offers a safe haven and would not be selective like we have seen with everyone heading to northern Europe. You need to wisen up to other cultures and stop using Western standards to assume everyone is straight and innocent! Some so called refugees have exploited fellow refugees in an attempt to gain priority treatment in the West. Great intentions which can still be executed but with controls in place. I bet you would be one of the first to complain if the atrocities witnessed in France happened here. Folk like you would be the first to accuse the got of not doing enough despite your contribution to the breakdown of common sense applications.

    anita

    15 Nov 15 at 11:50 pm

  3. Not sure that I agree with your language Neil, but your general points are good. The fact that terrorists are able to masquerade as refugees is because we have ignored the rising stream of refugees for too long, and don’t have the right mechanisms in place to sort them out.
    Anita, your idea of closing the borders is naive in the extreme. No one who has crossed the Chanel in a small boat can ever have any illusions about the total inadequacy of our border protection system. No one checks whether you have been to another country, or simply for a trip along the coast. If you report to customs, as you are supposed to do, you are just told to moor at a certain quay and wait for two hours. No one checks that you are there, no one inspects the boat or checks passports.
    The Navy scrapped its coastal protection fleet in the 1950s. And most small ports on the south coast do not even have a full time harbour master.Our only defence against illegal entry is the weather.
    It would cost billions to create the sort of border protection that you dream of even if it was morally defensible.
    Neil is right we must help the refugees in whatever way we can, a) because it is the right thing to do, and b) because those we have helped are much less likely to wish us harm.
    As to Paris, the countries of Europe have helped hundreds of thousands of refugees, and so far we only know of one who has done us any harm – and he was so psychologically damaged that he was on a suicide mission. If he had only had a medical examination at the border, even he might have been helped (by treatment or “De-radicalization”) to become a peaceful and constructive member of society. By far the majority of the refugees pose no threat whatsoever, and many simply want to return home as soon as it is safe to do so.

    Huw

    16 Nov 15 at 2:34 pm

  4. Goodness me someone else wanting to do the same and expecting a different result.
    I think you may look back on this in a year and think somewhat differently

    Chip Norton

    16 Nov 15 at 6:06 pm

  5. Hi Chip, not sure what you were referring to. Do you have information that we don’t?
    By the way, it now looks as if none of the Paris Terrorists had come in as refugees. The incriminating passport was not very close to a dead terrorist, and there doesn’t seem to be any reason that someone on a suicide mission would take a passport with them, except to falsely incriminate the refugees. ISIS would, of course love to choke off the stream of refugees, as they like to think of their “state” as a refuge fro Muslims.

    Huw

    16 Nov 15 at 10:17 pm

  6. By replying properly in full all I would be doing is giving you credibility. So best left there.

    Chip

    17 Nov 15 at 7:54 am

  7. What I find assuming is that the two dissenters who have bothered to comment have done so using fake names and e-mail addresses. Not willing to actually put their names to their comments clearly and indeed for ‘Chip’ I’m sure using fake names and e-mail addresses adds enormously to their own credibility. Also people who don’t know me apparently have this glorious insight into how I think today or indeed how I will think in the future, it is a miraculous skill these people have.

    I know some people are scared and firmly believe that if it isn’t our problem then we shouldn’t get involved. That was America’s view in WWII until suddenly Japanese planes decided that Hawaii was a target. It is easy to turn a blind eye to what is happening if you don’t see it. Even on simple things like homelessness, if you don’t go out late at night you won’t notice it much but if you do and walk say through a high street late at night it is hard not to notice. Just because something isn’t in our direct line of sight doesn’t mean it isn’t happening and I think the key part is, if we were in that trouble and facing what many people face daily, would we want the world to help or turn a blind eye?

    neilmonnery

    17 Nov 15 at 1:13 pm

  8. Too true Neil. What I am afraid of is that if we don’t help the refugees and they get stuck in no mans land, then many will become easy recruits for ISIS or its successor organisation dedicated to getting revenge for our failure to help when help was needed.

    However, I must acknowledge that there does now seem to be a fingerprint trail that indicates that one of the terrorists might have followed the refugee route. If this turns out to be true, one must marvel at the audacity of the man. Apparently people did have their suspicions, and if only there had been approachable officials for the refugees to report to, then may be he would have been arrested. In the absence of official support, then if the refugees had been able to confirm their suspicions, then maybe he would have been lynched before arriving in Paris, and that line of inquiry into the terrorist planning may have dried up before we realized that it existed. As it is, though rather late in the day, we have discovered where ISIS feels confident enough to cross borders, and where they may have some sort of organization on the ground. But wouldn’t it have been better if our job had been done properly in the first place?

    Providing proper help to people in need can generate a host of important incidental benefits.

    Huw

    17 Nov 15 at 3:28 pm

  9. I cannot believe the arrogance that people have in believing that they can make a better life for these “refugees/migrants/terrorist” whatever they may be, when they can’t even sort out the problems of people already living in the country. Not to mention a country that is already 1.6 trillion in debt, has an ailing health service, has more TB in London than Rwanda and thousands of homeless people living on the streets. So you would bring more people in to join the homeless would you? Or will you put these “special” people up in hotels or other accommodation at the expense of the taxpayer. I am quite frankly appalled by this irresponsible “love in” you all appear to be having. Shame on you for wanting to recklessly endanger approximately 68 million people so that you can gloat over how generous you have been with their money, for a few thousand that will be treated much better than the poverty stricken and homeless you already have.

    Tina Reeves

    17 Nov 15 at 11:22 pm

  10. Couple of interesting comments in this evening:

    Tina: So until every problem in the UK is solved then we shouldn’t help others? How self-centred and insular is that? Interesting that you are appalled by the love-in that we are all having, apart from the fact the majority of comments are attacking me and only one person has defended my views in this whole thread. Happily privately I’ve had plenty of positive feedback but to call this a love in is kinda bizarre. These are not easy questions nor are they easy times but we shouldn’t shirk our place in the world because it is difficult. There by the grace of God is it not us, you (and me) were lucky to be born in a free country at a time of freedom. That was pure luck. These refugees are facing conditions that we couldn’t even attempt to understand and the rest of the world shouldn’t look the other way. You disagree, that is fine, but I have always had the opinion that all humans are created equal and if other humans need help, then we shouldn’t turn the other way.

    John: I’m such a moron but you couldn’t even spell my name *shrug* – also you are of the belief that the 11 year-old kid who brought in a clock to school was at the very least causing mischief (but probably more) as it was much more than a clock. That is pretty darn cynical and you clearly have an issue with Islam and the Muslim faith seeing that and other comments that you have written.

    However you are of course entitled to your opinion (as indeed am I for the record) but a couple of things. Calling me egotistical is hilarious. The blog has the sub-title of ‘Another pointless voice in the vast ocean that is the interweb’ and I call myself in my About section ‘Another bum from the neighbourhood’ – I have a distinctly low opinion of myself and always have done. Calling me a moron, yeah I have no issue with that, you aren’t the first to call me that and you won’t be the last. The level of education in the UK must be terrible if I can get a degree. However I do contend that I forget that this is my just my opinion, of course it is just my opinion, it is my blog, I am not saying I’m right, I’m not saying I’m wrong. I’m just saying these are my views on the situation.

    neilmonnery

    18 Nov 15 at 1:13 am

  11. I have tried several times to reply to this article but it is so naively written and the author so lacks experience of this world as to just leave me sad and puzzled as to how such morons can exist in a country where education is free.

    His politics scream out even louder than his inability to understand why refugees are not accompanied by their wives and are carrying I Phones which the average Briton could not afford. He makes no mention as to why they don`t stay and fight for their own country and only by virtue of the fact that our people stood up and fought for Britain in two world wars is he able to write now with absolute freedom.

    Like most, who write tripe, Mr Monery forgets that his words are merely his opinion and like so many opinions from egotistical people, are not based on fact but on the opinions of his peers who it will be found are equally as ignorant and as deluded. However, birds of a feather do flock together.

    A problem when dealing with arrogant, ill informed people is that only after they have been proved wrong do they get the message but such is their ego, even then they cannot admit it. They do have their faults but being wrong is not one of them.

    In regard to the problems facing Britain, I am minded that arguing over them is probably a waste of time. In any event it’s unnecessary because when finally it happens and hordes of Muslims come running up the street waving machetes, many of whom were being pulled out of sinking boats only a month ago, the penny will drop and the wailing begin.

    I could talk about those living on the street who are homeless and without money, I could talk about a health service virtually crippled by lack of cash and the thousands who die unnecessarily because of this. I could talk about those diagnosed with cancer but who can´t be treated because the drugs they need are too expensive and the money to buy them is not available.

    I could even talk about the 215 old age pensioners who die every day in winter because of cold and of course if we get bored we can talk about the half a million people who live courtesy of food banks.

    It’s not worth talking about the half a million children who each day go to school without breakfast because their parents can´t afford to feed them nor is it worth talking about the fact that London has more TB than many African countries.

    Its offensive to talk about the rapidly rising rape carried out by Muslims in this country so we won´t bother and will talk instead about Malmo in Sweden, being the rape capital of the world.

    And let´s not mention the young German girl who was raped to death by a muslim who entered Germany two weeks ago as a refugee.

    The simple truth of the matter is we are desperately in need of money for our own people and taking it from them to house immigrants, put them up in four star hotels and provide taxi rides from Dover to Manchester at 300 pounds a time is wrong. Especially as the Arabs won´t help them because they are worried about the effect on their own people.

    Secure Britains borders? Why would anyone want to do that. What could possibly go wrong?

    The French President is able to answer that question.

    John DeVries

    18 Nov 15 at 12:10 am

  12. Neil, I am glad to see that the Christian principles you were taught as a child, still mean something to you, even if God doesn’t. ‘Love your neighbour as you would want to be loved’. As a matter of fact it is over one
    million people in this country who use food banks which are run by a Christian organisation and who turn no one away. Whilst I agree that there is much to be done to sort out the problems in this country we must look to the Government who do not seem to have the interest of ordinary people at heart. Working Tax credits are the perfect example. This does in no way negate our responsibility as a nation to act with compassion and tolerance towards those in deepest need. As a parent I cannot imagine the circumstances which would drive me to risk my children’s lives in a leaking boat across dangerous seas. The situation which the refugees are fleeing from must be horrendous and who can say that I would not take that risk. There needs to be less suspicion and more compassion in our society. Ignorance and bigotry breeds fear and fear breeds violence. My Mum had a favourite song ‘ Let there be Peace on earth and let it begin with me’. Not a bad maxim by which to lead your life.

    Suzette Manning

    18 Nov 15 at 8:55 am

  13. Ah a nice liberal rant. For a very long time now it has been easier to say the “nice thing” and preach hippy happy multiculturalism where we all get along and Muslims pass us pork and we pass them falafal with dandilions in our ears and believe the fake reality dramas on the BBC show us.

    My facebook is as usual full of happy preachy love and condemnation of things considered right wing, but also and this is new, my ‘normal’ friends are now questioning multiculturalism and the PC crap shoved down our throats. To post an ‘inspirational quote’ is easy, and just requires you to be a gutless self absorbed person who wants everyone to think they are ‘nice”, but to post the hard cold truth that paints you as a ‘bad person’ takes guts and requires a long period of seething frustration and checked words.

    peter andre

    18 Nov 15 at 9:58 am

  14. of course I understand the geo-politics that have created this mess. Israel with their Clean break plan:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clean_Break:_A_New_Strategy_for_Securing_the_Realm

    And america with their ‘Project for a new american century’:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century

    are to blame for the instability in the middle east. They want us to hate muslims, Israel wants us to to reduce the wests condemnation of thier land grabs and apartheid ‘non-multicultural’ society. America has always needed and still needs a bogey man to keep its states United. Plus both make a tonnof money from the resulting permanent war that can never be won. But the fact is thr hate has now been fermented and is ripe to blow. This is not the time to merge islamic and western cultures, the government know this yet every single western nation continues to do it in spite of overwhelming public opinion against it. Why? Maybe we are so in debt we need the extra tax slaves to balance the books. Or maybe they WANT instability in our countries, they want a resurgence of the right wing, and they want terrorism to justify clamp downs on our freedoms and privacy. Maybe they also WANT to continue these wars justified by terrorism to take out Israels enemies and to make our military industrial complex rich. If you believe in bankster rule.. getting your western puppet countries into even more war based debt is very handy for remaining in control.

    peter andre

    18 Nov 15 at 10:28 am

  15. But ask yourself. Can you think of any possible outcome from importing a million refugees that is good for society and where the right wing does not rise up as a if a horrible boil to a nasty sting? And how well have the existing immigrants assimilated? Second generation indians and Jews are indistingishable from native brits in culture. Muslims? Look at tower hamlets.

    peter andre

    18 Nov 15 at 10:34 am

  16. At this point in time the country needs security. Do you think allowing migrants in will improve security or not? If you reply please answer this simply with a YES or NO.
    There are 420,000 people already that disagree with your views and that’s just those who put their thoughts into signatures, so maybe you should reconsider your liberal rant as it sounds exactly like platitudinous bilge

    Chip

    18 Nov 15 at 11:31 am

  17. Further to the reply above, the following comments apply:
    Some refugees carry fake Syrian passports bought in Turkey, and are not Syrians, and are males of fighting age. They’re ISIS who are retreating from Russia’s air campaign in Syria. They are wahabi sunni nutters.
    These nutters hate you and I as we are infidel non-sunnis who can hide behind the human shield of “moderate muslims”
    Empathy like your blog will be used against us and will get the UK nowhere.

    Chip

    18 Nov 15 at 11:55 am

  18. YES to helping refugees.
    If we do nothing they will be stuck in no man’s land refugee camps and be easy recruits of ISIS, or the organization that will surely come that will want revenge for our refusal to help when help was needed.

    Helping people always has risks. Ask my brother who is a lifeboat launch authority having crewed boats for many years.

    And the refugees are certainly not scary young soldiers. Have you not seen the pictures of drowned children and elderly? Neither are they hostile to us. Many have received part of their education here, some families even have British relatives.

    Tina make some good points about the state of this country, but the truth is that the refugees who need our help are very much worse off. They would love to have our problems, but most just want somewhere safe to survive until it is safe for them to return home.

    And we should remember that many of this country’s problems are the result of the selfish policies of Tory and New “Labour” governments over the past 40 years. The policies that united them was one of low taxes and spend spend spend. We have not had an election for decades when a winning party has said “these are our problems, this is what we need to do, this is how we are going to raise the funds. The present lot just said “we need a lot of money which we will take from the people who don’t have any – the rest of you keep spending.”

    Huw

    18 Nov 15 at 12:17 pm

  19. Huw, please look on YouTube – search immigrant or refugee behaviour and then choose a country in Europe. You will see that they will not live how our poverty and homeless live without rioting. Perhaps that is what ours should do?

    Tina Reeves

    18 Nov 15 at 12:20 pm

  20. 425,000 now, good news

    Chip

    18 Nov 15 at 12:37 pm

  21. Tina, Perhaps our poor will riot before long. That is what happens if you ignore the needs of people who are in need for too long, and do not listen to what they are saying. No-one volunteers to starve or freeze to death, why should they? Would you?

    Politicians boast about “raising the level of the minimum/living wage”, and the jobs that they have created. In this area the nearest job that they boast about is 50 miles away, with negligible pubic transport. If you calculate the cost of commuting, you will find that a young person will have to spend half their income on just that. There are many people thinking of rioting.

    We should do more to help everyone in need, if we want to hang onto our nice cosy lives.

    And Chip, if you think that the Middle Eastern people are not fighting back against terrorists, look at your paper and read about what Adel Termos did in Beirut last Thursday. His quick thinking saved many lives, but not many of us would do what he did. The trouble is that to some of our newspapers, “that was a small event in a far country about which we need to know little.” Real heroes get little news coverage, whether in Beirut or in the Paris police force. The press are far to busy demonizing innocent victims.

    Huw

    19 Nov 15 at 12:02 am

  22. Huw
    Whilst I applaud your Liberal views, I don’t live in the same ideal world as you. If only the current reality was as rosy as you think, with lots of nice interesting new people to welcome here with open arms.
    Sadly there is reality. 8 of those people, just 8, caused the deaths of 120 normal hardworking people just like you and I, who went out for a pleasant evening in a safe capital city. One only has to go to the Midlands to see what is happening there to realise it could happen here so easily. The non integration, backward religious beliefs and lack of opportunity all stemming from the tide of people wanting to come to our country for what? – the climate? No. The job opportunities? No. The benefits? – aha now there’s a thing.
    Has the empathy you have done any good in here or France? No. It hasn’t it’s just enabled these people to take the good things and give nothing back. Huw go to Luton and see the placards supporting ISIS see the hatred there is of our country, our Police, our own culture. Your views would lead to your apologising profusely to those communities but again please be real – apologising for what????
    The issue is with integration of existing people. So why make that worse by accepting more at this crucial time when the desperate need is to focus on security.
    Your views on this issue would be somewhat different if your rolling farmland was wrecked by a shanty town for displaced refugees who by definition don’t actually want to be here, would they not? Perhaps I’m wrong there as I don’t know you but add into the mix a tiny proportion of those refugees with an intent to destroy the host nation then I think you would start to realise, albeit belatedly, that it wasn’t such a good idea after all.
    What is needed IMHO is all refugees in Europe to be safely housed in temporary accommodation and on licence, destruction of IS, and then compulsory return. That doesn’t sort out the issue of terrorism but is at least a compromise to enable moving forward without setting up huge problems for the long term future of the UK.
    The last paragraph is unattainable given the security risk now, today, and next week. Hence the need to close borders.
    As for Neil, he’s just cherry picked to suit his own agenda which is more anarchist than Liberal so I doubt if he knows Luton et al either.

    Chip

    19 Nov 15 at 3:42 am

  23. “Sadly there is reality. 8 of those people.” 8 people (actually it now appears that they were the front line of a group of maybe 2 dozen people)did cause a huge massacre, on a scale that almost matches weekly occurrences in the countries from which the refugees were fleeing. Of the 8 or 24 terrorists only one may have come into Europe as a refugee. Most of the rest either lived in Europe already, or possibly flew here in first class.

    Why do you think that a doctor or teacher should leave their home and come here to live on benefits? ( I knew an Indian family who were thrown out of Uganda by Idi Amin. The man had been a senior police officer, but worked for the rest of his life as a telephone salesman. His wife was (our departmental secretary), was the voluntary “liaison officer” between the Sikh Temple where they worshiped and the local Methodist Churches. Even when Refugees find a place in British Society they have to make do with whatever they can get, Coming here is far from a promotion!) With maybe 100 people in the UK having died because their benefits were reassessed, why do you think that anyone would come to live on our benefits system? I know a family where the husband works in the care sector, and whose wife is suffering the consequences of a major car accident in which (among other injuries) she broke her back, and needs constant medical attention, whose benefits were stopped because her medicine list got lost in the post on the way to a DHSS assessor. It took 6 weeks to sort that mess out, during which time they had to borrow money to survive. When their benefits were resumed no allowance was made for them to repay the borrowed money. Who would want to live on our benefits system? (I have a relative working on the other side of the counter (as a special needs adviser), and hear horrendous stories about what she is ordered to do to her clients/victims. She also sees some of the cases that the tabloid press like to talk about, but the majority are honest people trying hard to find work, but who are prevented from rejoining employment by a ridiculous system.

    I lived for 25 years in Harpenden, which in case you don’t know is 6 miles south of Luton. My wife lived for a time on the, now, notorious Marsh Farm, when it was a brand new estate. In 1975 when I moved to the area the Harpenden Advertiser was full of articles about the Irish Taxi Wars going on in Luton. By the time we moved in 2000 the paper was full of articles with the nearly identical headline about the Bangladeshi Taxi Wars. No doubt, these days, it is talking about the Syrian Taxi Wars. The headline is the same whoever lives there. The problem in Luton (and I gather in Bradford, for example) is not the origin of the people who live there, but the fact that there are a lot of insecure low wage jobs there. When the economy is on the rise, it is easy to get work there even though the pay is poor. Most people get experience and move elsewhere as soon as possible, leaving vacancies for others. But when the economy falters major employers like GM or Delco lay off staff, and reduce orders from the many small workshops that support them. There is a cascade of unemployment until the economy picks up again, but for those stuck in the town during the slump re-employment does not pay enough to pay off accumulated debts, or to make up for the lack of maintenance on their homes etc. IN these circumstance it is no wonder that a sense of frustration builds up and makes people easy targets for rabble-rousers and exploiters of many kinds.

    ” the desperate need is to focus on security.” But whose security are we talking about, and when do we want that security? In case you hadn’t noticed the whole world is getting less secure. There are failed states and terrorists movements all over Asia, the Middle East, Africa and to a lesser extent, now, South America. Even Russia with its history (or perhaps because of its history) of suppression has had problems, and terrorists (both foreign and home grown eg McVay, have reached the United States. We even have a grumbling under story of terror in N Ireland with Continuity etc. Some of these terror groups are linking up across continents, and try to capitalize on their appeal to disgruntled people. Terror does not require the movement of people, it is about the movement of ideas, and the on-line radicalization used by ISIS is just the first emergence of this phenomenon. Where ISIS leads, others will follow.

    Closing borders will certainly keep maybe about 5% of potential terrorists out, but thereby forcing refugees to remain for ever in camps. This will vastly increase the recruitment base. Israel has demonstrated this with the (excuse my spelling) Shabra and Shatilla camps, which have been a breeding ground for Israel’s troubles since 1948. I can understand the extreme difficulty Israel has in resolving that problem, but nevertheless, their failure to find it within themselves to show a bit more empathy has not helped. Refugee camps are wonderful refuges in a crisis, but there must be plans to get people out of them and integrated into normal society elsewhere. 500,000 Syrian refugees cannot stay in the Lebanon (with a population of 2 M and horrendous problems of its own) for ever. Relatively speaking London (8M population) would not notice an extra 500,000 people, but no one is suggesting that all the refugees go to London. That 500,000 would be spread round the whole of Europe, and the first group in the UK have gone to Scotland.

    “The issue is with integration of existing people” That is certainly one very important issue, and one which we do not seem to be doing anything about. In fact zero hours contracts, low wages, job insecurity, de-skilling etc, seem to be designed to de-integrate vast numbers of people. It must spread the insecurity that is apparent in Luton and elsewhere over the whole country. Perhaps having to integrate a lot of extra people might make somebody think about practical steps to integrate our own citizens, rather than lecturing them, or teaching them the National Anthem. Singing it does not provide secure employment.

    “destruction of IS, and then compulsory return.” I don’t think that if IS was destroyed that there would be much trouble in getting the majority of refugees to return – as long as there was a realistic chance of rebuilding their homes, communities, economy etc. The lesson of World War 2 is that after the UK suffered major damage, we needed the Marshal Plan to get back on our feet, and the enemy never occupied the UK. I
    ISIS is not only destroying infrastructure, but occupying land and destroying communities, That never happened here. It is in our interests that if and when Syria etc is liberated we help it to become a secure and fully functioning state. We cannot afford more “failed states”, and in Afghanistan and Iraq we can see what rebuilding a state on the cheap has done.

    “be somewhat different if your rolling farmland was wrecked “. My fathers family came from the Rhondda, where “rolling farmland” was destroyed to build up the coal and steel industries, and then the industrial communities were wrecked again by the destruction of those industries. (A century earlier they were North Wales slate miners.) Things change and we are as good as destroying our own assets, as any outside force. Life goes on, things change. Lets hope that if the refugees come to live here, that they are kinder then Westminster Governments have been, they are unlikely to be very much worse. What we must do is to offer friendship and kindness to those who ask for our help. that may be expensive, but it will be far cheaper then making more enemies.

    ( Last night I read an article by an economic commentator that suggested that it would be a good idea if the major supermarkets reduced their prices by 15% – so “our rolling farmland” will be wrecked ” anyway. It seems that we cannot escape the onward march of man made economics, and nature must bend to that force or get out of the way. As an ecologist I despair. The ecosystem on which we all depend is very rapidly being destroyed by the world’s governments pig headed refusal to listen to what farmers and ecologists have been telling them for the last 50 years. This destruction is not caused by chemicals, or pollution or farming methods it is caused by economics.)
    I’m afraid that I do not know Neil, but he certainly knows how to spark off a wide ranging and I hope friendly debate.. Lets hope that we all learn from it!

    Huw

    19 Nov 15 at 12:38 pm

  24. Huw don’t start me on what has happened to agriculture as a result of the last 20 years politics and supermarkets! We’re in the same trench on that one

    Chip

    19 Nov 15 at 12:59 pm

  25. Fantastic, Chip. I was beginning to think that I was on my own. There are only 1/3 the number of farms (and 1/3 the number of farmland birds)that there were when I trained, so it is easy to feel isolated. The countryside is very quiet now.

    Huw

    20 Nov 15 at 1:01 am

  26. Yes, so much arable is contracted too so huge loss of local jobs.
    I’m leaving this now as I doubt Mr Monnery will be able to give a straight yes/no answer to my security question without a load of waffle. Heigh Ho.
    Best regards Huw

    Chip

    20 Nov 15 at 5:28 am

  27. One last fact. US refugee process:

    – takes two years
    – in-person interviews and supporting documents
    – their experience of conflict cross-checked against intelligence
    – about 50% of applicants approved

    So in 50% of cases their story doesn’t add up and/or they are a security risk.
    That’s what we should be dealing with

    That’s all folks. Draw your own conclusions.

    Chip

    20 Nov 15 at 7:05 am

  28. Sorry to see you going, Chip
    US Refugee process
    Border with Mexico is said to porous, so US Refugee stats” must be taken with a pinch of salt. Difference between applicants and approvals could be because applicants have a better job offer elsewhere during the 2 year wait. For others failure doesn’t imply that they are a security risk, it could be that job reference failed, potential employer went out of business or closed the relevant branch. Some of the failed entrants might have become too ill to travel, died, or have relatives who became sick during the 2 year process – could be many other reasons.
    Anyway – great discussion – hope we meet again!

    Huw

    20 Nov 15 at 6:08 pm

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